Curse

Dutch Masterr · Dec 15, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

i know how many flames im going to get for posting this, but it really needs to be said (and sorry if it already has been).

the whole build of mystic regen, stoneflesh aura, sliver armor, etc...seriously needs a nerf. yes, yes it has its counters but believe me, even mass enchant removal such as rend enchantments doesnt stop this build. now i know this build cant do that much damage, but it is damn ridiculous to have an invincible elementalist running around tanking over 5 warriors and assassins at a time. the only real counter to this build would be a build such as a migraine interupter or energy shutdown. now how many of those do you see in AB? next to none...only one every once in a while. this build is way to abused and in my opinion, its dumb to have a build that only another specific build can kill. i used rend enchantment against this build (removed 6 enchantments)just after the ele had casted all of his enchants, and within no time at all, he was back up running at his full "invincible" state. with a ranger, i used three interupts against it and still no use. LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR--yes the build has its counters like every other build, but this build has minimal counters. they are near impossible to shut down.

Amok Affinity · Dec 15, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

the skills are hardly overpowered. the thing is, AB means nothing. you can be effective with the most absurd builds imaginable in ab/ra.this is because of the incompetence/lack of coordination of [most] everyone present.

bottom line (irrelevance of AB aside): if it's ridiculous then why does it need to be nerfed? you yourself said it's good for nothing, no damage, nadda.

p.s. snares > stoneflesh llama

dudeimoncoke · Dec 15, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

well of profane, gaze of contempt, drain/shatter/inspired enchant, but the absolute BEST SHUT DOWN for this build is so in your face obvious. JUST LEAVE HIM ALONE. Seriously, if all he does it tank just don't fight him? You are a person with free will, memory, and intellect. Not a monster with AI that tells it to attack something until it dies.

Craze Horse · Dec 15, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

The only problem is its getting abused in GvG's, anet normally likes to "alter" if you will, builds that are overused in GvG.

I think making Mystic Regeneration go under Myst. would work pretty well. All are great skills that I'd hate to see nerffed, but a build that can take out a keep without having your health drop below 3/4 is in for an inevidable change.

Lordhelmos · Dec 15, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craze Horse

The only problem is its getting abused in GvG's, anet normally likes to "alter" if you will, builds that are overused in GvG.

I think making Mystic Regeneration go under Myst. would work pretty well. All are great skills that I'd hate to see nerffed, but a build that can take out a keep without having your health drop below 3/4 is in for an inevidable change.

Thank gid someone agrees with me. I started a whole thread on this. Nerf Mystic Regen and R.I.P. Dervish. Move it into mysticism.

Also yes the stoneflesh ganker is rediculous as hell. And you can kill the guild lord all by yourself using sliver and sandstorm. Casters outside of the dervish class DO NOT need to be running around with Mystic Regen and have +9 regen for 20 seconds. They aren't on the front, they dont need to be tanking. However, take this skill away from dervs and they becomes sins with scythes.

The only thing that can 100% rip this build a new one is Avatar of Grenth and ONLY because that skill is also rediculous. 75 seconds of enchantment removal on hit? Wonder what they were thinking with that one.

ss1986v2 · Dec 15, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

i signed the other thread concerning mystic regen being moved to mysticism. better to move the skill then nerf it to worthlessness. and as for the e/d tanks in ab/ra, they arent going to be the reason we see a nerf to mystic, it will be because of the before mentioned GvG gankers. whenever GvG becomes out of balance, anet is pretty swift with their nerfs.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Things are going to be slightly more imbalanced in enviornments where you can trust that your teammates are going to be near-incompetent. Don't like it? Bring gaze of contempt, and he'll drop immediately in the middle of tanking, if you can catch him without obs flesh up. Chillblains would also work. The template is basically the old WM two man sin gank squad with infinite shadow forms, only with less thought.

WTB mesmer, anyone?

Things DO become problematic in GVG with earth gankers, which is why Anet might want to change it, but no way in hell should they nerf something just because it's too good in AB, which is barely a step above RA in terms of metagame issues. There are a whole host of issues I have with AB and how Anet royally screwed up the enviornment, but I digress (basically, 12v12 GVG would be awesome on maps that are really big and open and it's not as competitive since you don't lose rating, instead we get a new version of randoms).

LoyalSoldier · Dec 15, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Mystic Regen is the only one that is close to being overpowered.

Frankly I don't get the ele tanks in RA because half of the time they suck. They pack so many things to keep themselves alive that they can't attack worth crap. Maby a sandstorm here and there, but really they suck. Not to mention I can bring gaze of contempt and the ele is a deer in the headlights.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

obs flesh>gaze of contempt. There are a few issues with the guild lord ganking though, but generally a dom mesmer will destroy them.

LoyalSoldier · Dec 15, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

obs flesh>gaze of contempt. There are a few issues with the guild lord ganking though, but generally a dom mesmer will destroy them.

As a E/D though they can't keep it up forever. There will be a window.

ayame ftw · Dec 15, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

if u daze him, he cant do much..

Ensign · Dec 15, 2006, 12:20 PM // 12:20

I think both Mystic Regeneration and Stoneflesh Aura are cause for concern.

Peace,
-CxE

Dutch Masterr · Dec 15, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think both Mystic Regeneration and Stoneflesh Aura are cause for concern.

Peace,
-CxE

yes exactly. you would think a skill that reduces ALL damage (except armor ignoring of course) by up to -32 would be an elite skill. this skill is better than a majority of the elites in this game if you ask me. also, you would think MYSTIC regeneration would be in MYSTICysm. i didnt mean nerf to the point of them being useless, just make stoneflesh aura reduce less damage, reduce the length or maybe even make it elite (not all three changes though). mystic regeneration is a great skill, but it has too much potential to be abused by ANYTHING that uses enchantments that is secondary dervish. this skill could also even be elite, or at least a move to mysticysm would balance this problem out alot. the combo of stoneflesh aura+mystic regen+aura of restoration and any other enchantments at minimal earth prayers (8), is just too powerful and you really cant deny that. you also have to remember that all classes should have the ability to kill any other class but this leaves out ranger, warrior, mostly assassin, paragon and even dervish. all classes shouldnt need to bring mass enchant removal, and even mass enchant removal isnt as effective as it should be against this build.

Lordhelmos · Dec 15, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I agree on both skills being problematic. Stoneflesh on its own is an all around great spell. Granted it has a long cast time, so on its own it isnt too bad and can be interrupted. But stacking it on something like armor or earth or mystic regen is insane. E/D stoneflesh tank is crazy and just about immune to everything but a full rend or a mesmer as pointed out. However these two skills are FAR from "balanced."

Mystic Regen is a volitile subject only because its so essential to a dervish. In the hands of a dervish its a fair skill because dervs are constantly sacrificing enchantments and ARE a front line melee class that needs this kind of regenerative survival. However when you slap mystic regen on an enchantment heavy caster like a bonder monk or elementalist, then you have some serious issues.

People cry that there are counters, but still being forced to play mesmer or bring a full rend for one class is rediculous. That and your E/D or Mo/D has friends. They can easily melee train your mesmer or whatnot.

Try fighting a stoneflesh tank paired up with a spirit spammer and Zb shield of absorption Mo/A with return. Not fun eh?

Im not too worried about stoneflesh because I can smell the nerf. However mystic regeneration is alot more touchy. It doesnt need a nerf, it just needs to be taken out of the hands of secondary caster abusers. Nerf it and Dervish become sins with a scythe and no shadow steps.

Seriously having mystic regeneration in earth prayers with only a 8 point requirement to max its potential is like having spell breaker in protection prayers.

Ensign · Dec 15, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I don't think that Mystic Regeneration in its current form is 'essential' to the Dervish. None of the competitive PvP builds use it, and Mystic Regeneration isn't a skill that makes Dervishes viable in DoA or something. The trouble with the skill is how it only becomes ridiculously strong on a useless character. It's only earth tanks, or other guys stacking five to seven defensive enchantments, that are making this silly.

A proposed nerf to the skill that I like quite a bit is for it to give 1...4 health regeneration, and an additional 1...4 health regeneration if you have another enchantment. The skill would still do what was expected of it on offensive characters, while disabling super grief mode.

Stoneflesh Aura on the other hand I don't feel is as guilty, and is more of a tipping point. Earth Eles have had a ton of stackable defenses for a long time, and Stoneflesh Aura is the addition that pushed them into the abusive range. Of course the effect is nutty, with any variety of armor and DR buffs this quickly reduces all damage taken to zero. Unlike other armors, the casting time on this at least makes it vulnerable.

However the geotank is starting to feel like the 55 Monk, without all the gimmicky stuff needed to maintain your energy. While Earth Elementalist offense isn't something to get excited about, a lot of people do, and when you can mount it on defenses this hard, it's going to get run. Yes, it's disruptable, just as 55ers are, but it has the same set of problems as far as degenerate farming goes.

Peace,
-CxE

MercenaryKnight · Dec 15, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Easiest counter which I bring on my RaO thumper. Dazed. No more new enchants, they die while they keep casting it. But I agree it should go into the dervishes primary attribute to make it more balanced.

Divineshadows · Dec 16, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think that Mystic Regeneration in its current form is 'essential' to the Dervish. None of the competitive PvP builds use it, and Mystic Regeneration isn't a skill that makes Dervishes viable in DoA or something.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think both Mystic Regeneration and Stoneflesh Aura are cause for concern.

Do you mean for PvP or PvE? If you mean for PvP, then why? Do these two skills allow for an earth ele to be too survivable in the guild lord area and leave too much room on the bar for offensive skills to wipe the NPCs? Would archer NPCs be too overpowered if they gave them savage shot in addition to pin down? I wonder which skill description wins out...wild blow or stoneflesh aura. I personally hate mystic regen and stoneflesh aura, because the number of players that go into arenas with the goal of not dying (a very stupid goal IMO) instead of actually killing something has gone way up since the release of these two skills.

It enraged me as a monk in RA when I pointed out all 4 or 5 enchant skills an E/D on the opposing team stacked on themself and the rampage thumper on my team still called that person as the target. That thumper and the dervish on my team charged in and attacked that target while standing in a sandstorm doing no damage whatsoever while I was desparately trying to ping a new target for them over and over again while simultaneously trying to heal insane self inflicted damage by my brain-dead "teammates". What's even more sad, is that my team still managed to win the match with the 2 melee players having their face in the dirt after dying -> rezzing -> dying again...a monk (me) and an interrupt ranger (don't even remember this player's elite skill) proceeded to wipe the other 4 players. Of course, we left the retarded E/D earth tank for last like I wanted my team to do in the first place...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Easiest counter which I bring on my RaO thumper. Dazed. No more new enchants, they die while they keep casting it. But I agree it should go into the dervishes primary attribute to make it more balanced.

Dazed is overkill IMO. Hammer bash and disrupting lunge alone get the job done against those useless earth tanks that show up in RA or TA from time to time. Just make sure to leave them for last, run out of their sandstorms as they come up, and then go at them 4v1. They won't last long with 4 players attacking once you interrupt mystic regen and stoneflesh with hammer bash and disrupting lunge. In TA, the only thing I would run on a sandstorm ele's bar to supplement it is obsidian flame (for an occassional spike assist about every 30 seconds or so), glyph of lesser energy, ward against melee, ward of stability, and a couple support skills. If you can get by without both slots for support, then maybe stoneflesh aura squeezes onto that bar but certainly not mystic regen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

...and any other enchantments at minimal earth prayers (8),

I agree that 8 earth prayers does seem a bit low of an investment for 3 regen per enchantment. If this skill remains in the earth line, it seems like 7 should be the breakpoint for 2 regen and 12 should be the breakpoint for 3 regen. Or just re-work the skill entirely as Ensign suggested.

Mouse at Large · Dec 16, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

I really can't see what the fuss is about. Use Mystic Regen, possibly with say an attune, Stoneflesh, AoE and say AoR (not for the healing, more to give 4 enchants) Unless you are going to drastiically cut down your ES or Earth lines, that will give you +8 regen. That's 5 of your skillslots taken up.

Against AI in PvE, you can get away with Sliver, something like Aftershock and Sandstorm ( I know - I farm certain critters in this setup

) Problem is e-management.

Against human opponents, where's the sustainable damage? Sure you might be unkillable, but what are you contributing? In most cases, you might just as well be part of the scenery

Dutch Masterr · Dec 16, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

when i made this post, i meant it for pvp reasons. now that i think of it though, it has a very high potential to be an over abused solo farm build too (which there already might be).

whats bad though is that its not just the earth eles that can abuse this. a searing flames ele with fire attunement+aura of restoration+mystic regen+conviction is almost as bad. a +9 regen that can be kept on always on top of a stance that adds +24 armor. less defended than a stoneflesh tank, but has much more powerful offense and a formidable defense.

monks too can abuse this--mending+mystic regen. +4 from mending, +3 from mystic regen and another +3 from mending/mystic. +10 regen in just 2 skills with only -1 energy regen, which is bearable. thats just the first one that came to mind, but you can see where im going with that. imagine if it is used in combonation with protection prayers....extreme damage reduction enchants combined with +3 regen per enchant at ONLY 8 earth prayers. i can see this comming soon, which i actually just thought of--invincible (basically) mo/d using a scythe..if used right it could be devestating.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 16, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

[skill=big]Stoneflesh Aura[/skill]

Heh, i need to pay more attention to spells like this. i usually just mow through the guy using this, but it can be scary.

[skill=big]Rend Enchantments[/skill]

This would seem the obvious answer to the problem,but who plays a primary curses necro in GvG/PvP? Not many last time i checked.

[skill=big]Test of Faith[/skill]

And this skill would be the damning blow to the build in question,but you would need to stop the caster first. However, that seems to be the problem.
Dazing,interupting,and rending are all options,but would take you making 3 individual builds at the minimum to just stop 1 member of the group.

That,my friends, makes the build rather difficult to counter. Options abound,but useful options don't seem easily accessible.